Date: 04/12/2013 7:57 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
Oh, and BTW, what part of "a bit of PWP is good now and then" is hard to understand?
Really now, you're just being contrary because I didn't cheer you on.
You're attributing to me things I never wrote, and that' even worse than generalizing and stereotyping. But go ahead, have fun.
As I've already said, pointless.
Date: 04/12/2013 7:44 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
Ooook. From your rambling answer I basically got this "I find it interesting how both of you are basically KS shippers and find it neccessary to point out that you are "better" than most other KS shippers".
You're kidding, right?
I find it hilarious that even though you pretend to be listened to, you appear to be totally incapable of reading and understanding a six-lines comment.
It might be a talent… or you might have had a glass or two.
Doesn't matter anyway. This is the kind of attitude I personally despise, the I am forever right so I don't even try to listen to other people and even if I seem to I'm actually thinking about something else entirely, so when I answer I usually make up things.
That's quite pathetic and it doesn't help to fight the fangirl stigma. But maybe the problem is not in the 'slash' or 'fan' part, but 'girl', even though the subjects of the majority of fics are not for underage people. But 'fanwoman' is indeed atrocious.
Ah, well, I have the sneaking suspicion that trying to talk to you is totally pointless.
Date: 04/12/2013 11:48 AM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
Response to lilyj (Since I already responded to her review): You say that you enjoy PWP but then you say that slash writers should use more brain. So basically you have your cake and eat it too.
Date: 04/11/2013 7:20 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
Interesting essay, even though is too much on the rant side to be taken too seriously: writing something like that in the heat of the moment is fine as a stress relief, but if you want to use this piece as a 'pamphlet' of sort, it might be a good idea to cool it. And I sadly agree with Ana, even though the problem for me is not the "two guys, purdy!" (a bit of PWP is good now and then), but the total lack of brain behind too many fic. I'm not asking for 'literature', just a bit of thought.
I think that the tone of the discussion should stay as cool as a cucumber as possible. Let the detractors be the hot-headed pillocks, yes?
Read my response to Ana. I find it interesting how both of you are basically KS shippers and find it neccessary to point out that you are "better" than most other KS shippers. I'm sure that plenty of "het" fan fictions are also PWP and don't particularly have a good plot, but some do. The same goes for slash fanfiction. People have obvously put a load of effort into some of the stories on here. Saying that slash is somehow more brainless or gratuitously sexually explicit than het stories is similar to saying that most gay men are promiscuous, while plenty of straight men are also promiscuous. Anyway, I don't think I came across as overly angry. I did start it as an exercise for myself to put down my thoughts on paper as I was starting to get really angry at people on Youtube, etc and then I thought I'd share it with others rather than keeping it to myself, because I feel like this stuff isn't said enough. I did try to structure it a bit more clearly. but I don't think a "good" piece of work means I have to show ZERO emotion. Personally, I can't stay "Cool as a cucumber" when I go on Youtube and come across somebody going on about how K/S shippers are sexual devients. As for the whole "two guys, purdy" thing, I DID in fact say that some people do write slash fan fiction purely for their own enjoyment, but my point was that this doesn't invalidated any romantic interpretation between characters of the same sex. The Kirk and Spock pairing is not the result of under-sexed "slash fangirls" who just want to match up to guys, it came into existence BEFORE the concept of slash even existed. There is a reason for this. People will claim that K/S shippers see things through "slash goggles" and whatnot but some people will try so hard to DENY the K/S interpretation that they have tried to come up with fairly far-fetched explanations to some scenes, heaven forbid anybody think it is homoerotic, like saying that Kirk sends the Yoeman away after the backrub in Shore Leave so he doesn't get charged with sexual harrassment. The humour of that scene is the awkward moment between Spock and Kirk. It's the double standards that annoy me. One moment of one-sided flirting from Uhura to Spock in The Man Trap is considered a good basis for a romance yet somebody claiming that multiple moments of affection between Kirk and Spock is romantic is "wishful thinking". Anyway, both you and Ana seem to have taken all the points I've already made and made them back to me. I already pointed out that you could make the argument that anti-S/U attititudes are racist and I spoke about the differences of circumstance. S/U doesn't get lumped into its own category because they are an interracial couple. Spock/Kirk DOES get thrown into its own category because they are the same-sex. S/U shippers are not labelled "interracial fangirls". K/S shippers ARE labelled "slash fangirls". Big difference.
Both you and Ana are basically saying "People generalise because it's true". I don't think it is true. That was my point. They are GENERALISING and STEREOTYPING. Slash fan fiction simply means it's romantic fan fiction between characters of the same sex. Nothing more. Like people might claim that gay men are camp but being a gay man doesn't mean anything other than being a man who is attracted exclusively to men.
Date: 04/11/2013 2:21 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
Because sometimes slash fangirls are equally rude to non-slash fans. Any dissent is homophobia, no matter the comment made against the pairing. You've done it here. Without giving samples, you can't say the rabid-antislashers are all rabid-antislashers because they're homophobic. It would be equally easy (and I've seen it done) for any Uhura fan to argue any non-Uhura fan (or non S/U fan) is a racist. But it's harsh, unfair, and wrong. Some of the detractors will be homophobic (or racist, in that example). But many won't be. If you don't like SFs being tarred with the same brush of "silly girl", then don't tar every detractor with the same brush of "homophobe."
The stereotype of an SF being what it is...it's because for the most part, it's true. Look at fanfiction. The stereotype is that fanfiction is shit. Spend twenty minutes in any fandom archive on FFN and it's obviously true. There's a couple of diamonds in many, many miles of rough. Slash fangirls are the same: many are teenagers or young women, who will slash any two male characters - whether they have ever met in the fandom world or not. It's unfortunate for those who are basing their observations on more than "two guys, purdy!" but that's the way it is.
(And a minor thing - but Kirk does have a brother in nu!verse ;) He shows up in the comics with a really impressive beard going on.)
According to Memory Delta he has no brother but whatever. My point was that it's an alternative reality and some details have been changed because of different circumstances. Anyway, I thought I made a comment about people arguing that criticising the S/U pairing is racist. You obviously didn't bother to read my entire essay. Some K/S slasher ARE rude but my point was that many anti-KS people make generally anti-SLASH comments. That is, they criticise ANY same-sex pairing. Most people who criticise S/U pairing are not criticising it because they are different ethnicities, they might argue against it because a) Lack of TOS basis b) The cliche nature of an obligatory heterosexual romance c) The fact that Uhura is now dependent on a male lead d) Spock apparenly being asexual e) Spock being Uhura's teacher and then her superior officer f) The possibility that, before Vulcan is destroyed, Spock is bonded to T'Pring and Spock not having hit sexual maturity yet. I'm not saying that anybody who genuinely doesn't "see" the Kirk and Spock pairing is an anti-slasher or homophobic, but look at any Kirk/Spock video on Youtube and a handful of people are making fun of "slash fangirl", that is, there issue isn't with the K/S pairing particularly but that they claim to dislike all slash. Slash fan fiction may not be somebody's "thing" but when you actually claim to dislike something which encompasses ALL same-sex pairing you are saying that same-sex pairing are somehow lesser to opposite-sex pairings. THAT is homophobic. I thought I made all these points in my article. You seem to be clarifying something to me which I already clarified in my piece. And like with any stereotype some people do actually fit the stereotype but it's still a STEREOTYPE! The whole point of my article was the ridiculousness of labelling anybody who claims to see some potential romance between Kirk and Spock as "slash fangirls" and then making all sorts of assumptions about them. You are making the same assumption even though you are members of KS Archives. You are essentially saying that most people who ship K/S have an invalid argument simply because they like seeing two guys together (Which, by the way, is perfectly natural). I also find it interesting that you are a KS shipper of sorts and are taking the "But I'm better than the other shippers" approach. If you believe in something, stand by it. Don't give in to the haters.
Date: 04/11/2013 10:07 AM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
I realise I'm reviewing my own essay here but I just wanted to say that I posted the link to this on the IMDB message boards for Star Trek: The Original Series, Star Trek (2009) and Into Darkness. I doubt everybody on there will be so supportive but I felt I wanted to expose it beyond Kirk/Spock friendly pages and sites, especially with Into Darkness coming out soon (And people are already talking about Kirk/Spock and Spock/Uhura on the messageboard). If I start getting harrassed though, I would appreciate some support if any of you have IMDB accounts. Thanks.
Date: 04/11/2013 1:03 AM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
I must live underground or need to get out more. I have seen virtually no compelling arguments against slash (at least K/S). TOS clearly is so full of it, I could see it even as a child. One of the weaknesses in the reboot is the Spock/Uhura element, because regardless of slash, the story should be about Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Other emotional aspects make points and counterpoints but shouldn't drive the story. Ultimately, Star Trek is about the promise of tomorrow, of what we can be, or what we should be. If that includes a close relationship between the two main characters, no matter what that relationship is called, so be it. Your essay is thought provoking. Makes me want to sit you down and buy you a glass of wine.
Date: 04/10/2013 6:30 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
Thank you for posting this essay. Personally I think 'Startrek" is the ultimate love story between two perfectly matched individuals. They happen to be both male... So what.... Look what is going on in France,really it makes you sad, so I'm proud to be a slash fangirl!
Date: 04/10/2013 6:04 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
This was well written and much of it needed to be said. I am not a rabid slasher myself, I just ship the living daylights out of K/S for my own little reasons. But to say that all slash is wrong or offensive is definitely wrong. I know of several slash 'ships I don't follow and some who turn my stomach, but it's because I can't see the characters together, not the fact that they're in a homosexual relationship. Thank you for putting your argument so clearly stated and I hope it spreads on the web and you educate many people. Good job!
Date: 04/10/2013 5:48 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
I am thrilled you decided to post this here. I am the creator of the poetic slash page for Kirk/Spock and linked it to our facebook group. I really enjoyed what you had to say. If ever you wish to join our little(actually it's growing) group, just let me know. It would be awesome to have you among us. Kirk/Spock rules...
Date: 04/10/2013 5:07 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
Very interesting essay, and I think you're right on target as to why most slash writers are straight females. While I love me some porn (and have written a fair share), I am far more interested in romance with my sex, and as someone who's been watching Trek since the very beginning, I submit that it's willfully blind to argue that there's "nothing" between Kirk and Spock. There are too many episodes that hint at a deeper involvement than either has with any other character (Amok Time, This Side of Paradise, City on the Edge of Forever, the Naked Time, etc., etc.) not to mention Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock. There is a deep and abiding bond there, be it sexual or not, and there's no logical reason why it couldn't be sexual.
Date: 04/10/2013 4:30 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
There is seeing what is not there and seeing what was deliberately put there or captured. The truth until N or S spill or one or both die and the post mortem info comes out we will never know what is cannon and what fangirlonn. But in the end does it matter, the fanfic is fun and we all have friends all over the world as a result. Also many of us would never have started to write or draw or vid. There would be no Fics for disaster funds no slash print dresses etc But I do hope that there will be a day that the beans are spilled and cannon confirms slash girl fannon. She who laughs last laughs longest.
On the other hand maybe it is all stills and camera angle cane as Nimoy did say acting pain is best achieved by imagining love making. However one thing is for sure they were not the first slash pair. Greek playwrights were into political slash well before K/S, the Brontes were femslashing and when you add in the actors gender Shakespeare was the leader of the pack on the subject. It's not that we are seeing what isn't there it is the non slashers that are blind or in denial. Or maybe they like Trek because they see a world that isn't over sexualised......pull the othe one. Unless there is a lucosian prophylactic involved and a certain doctor attached.
seriously, good thoughts and worth consolidating in sections and adding to. Trolls are ignorant. If wasn't a legit phenomenon why are there so many academic studies.
Date: 04/10/2013 3:38 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
Well, that's interesting. But I find your assumption that attitudes are becoming more open and less homophobic as time marches on a bit shaky. The sixties were a time of social exploration and so were the nineties. The 2010's on the other hand, seem to be a period of increasingly homophobia if you pay careful attention to the media.
Well, yeah I mean in terms of legality and stuff mostly, and for sure now more people acknowledging homosexuality than they did in the 60s, even though they were the "swinging 60s" and all. I think maybe while the world has become less anti-gay it's more heteronormative in some ways. Like I really felt the reboot back-tracked by placing Spock in what I felt was an obligatory relationship with a female character to please the mainstream audience. A love triangle between the two male leads and the only regular female in an action movie doesn't seem particularly creative to me. Part of the reason Uhura was so interesting in TOS was that she was a respected member of the crew rather than female eye-candy for the male crew members to drool all over, and one of the reason I felt Spock was interesting was that he was a strong male character and sex symbol who didn't have to have a girl on each arm to prove his "masculinity" or whatever. He was a foil almost for Kirk. Kirk was always going after the girls, Spock was disinterested. Thanks for the review!
Date: 04/10/2013 1:45 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
Also, Sherlock and Watson--between Law and Downey Jr--excellent point, and I *do* see that too, LOL
Thank you for reposting this here. It was linked on a FB group I'm a member of and I'm happy somone is finally standing up for us, and doing it so elegantly at that.. :)
Date: 04/10/2013 1:41 PM Title: Why Are People So Rude to “Slash Fangirls”?
THANK YOU!!! I find it incredibly frustrating the double standards which you have so elequently pointed out. I myself don't really ship anything else in slash. I see shades of potential between Naruto and Sasuke, but the rest of it--no. I don't wear slash goggles and it's not the sex between two attractive men that is the primary driver for *why* I 'ship' the pair. It's the clearly visible, unquestionable (imo) romantic quality to their relationship--it's the feeling, the emotion, the obvious love which I really don't think could possibly be platonic. I have friends, good friends, friends I consider family. Would they illegally commandeer a space ship (if they existed) and fly across the galaxy, face down huge, well armed adversaries, then explode that ship (something they held most dear) just for the *chance* that I might be alive somewhere, in some form, by some miracle? Hellz no. HELLLLLLLZZZZ NO. But Jim did it for Spock, it was his idea and yes he had help, but if he hadn't followed his gut, hadn't pulled those strings, no one else would have. I think that pretty much sums it up.
To all K/S slash nay-sayers, this is what I have to say: Bitches, please.